Abuse in Victor Valley Community Hospital, Victorville, California / Transcripts
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San Bernardino County INTEROFFICE MEMO
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DATE: December 26, 2003 |
PHONE: (yyy) xxx-zzzz |
The following is a tape-recorded interview of Kathi Stringer conducted by Bill Dodge, Patients’ Rights Advocate, regarding a complaint against Victor Valley Community Hospital, Behavioral Health.SUBJECT: Taped interview of Kathi Stringer
BILL: It is… What is today? Wednesday, December 17th, time is about ten minutes to eleven. Present are myself, Bill Dodge, Mental Health Worker, Arimi Vicencio. Am I right?
ARIMI: Uh huh.
BILL: Okay, clerk. Kathi Ann Stringer and Christy…..
CRISTINA: Cristina Cabrera.
BILL : Cristina…
CRISTINA : Cabrera.
BILL: Cabrera, Okay. We have your permission to, we have your oral permission as well as your written permission to tape record what’s going to take place?
KATHI: Absolutely.
BILL: Okay. We’re going again. All right, today’s date is the seventeenth. All right. I’m going to read and um, we’re going to go from there. You brought some concerns to our attention by phone and by sending us documentation regarding your complaints against Victor Valley Community Hospital pertaining to events that reportedly transpired on Wednesday, 11/12/03. And the complaints were outlined in detailed in a letter you faxed to our office on 12/1 of 03. The primary complaint that you had was with regards to this facility and involving the use of inappropriate seclusion.KATHI: And ?????.
BILL: Yeah. So what was in… what I just read is primarily correct?
KATHI: That would be the primary. There are also secondary complaints as well.
BILL: Yeah there are five more.
KATHI: Yeah.
BILL: Can you briefly describe why you believe the use of seclusion was not justified, and or appropriate, and how long you were in seclusion?
KATHI: I believe seclusion was inappropriate because I did not cause a serious risk to myself, I did not pose a serious risk to others and I was not um, destroying community property. It was presented to me as a mandatory time out. I said that, “There is no provision by law for a mandatory time out.” At that time Alex placed both hands on the back of my shoulder blade, he pushed me into seclusion, and locked the door. And he said, “Kathi, you are not in charge of this place, I am.”
BILL: Okay. Back to the, to his um, grabbing you. You said he grabbed you by your shirt.
KATHI: The shirt.
BILL: One hand, two hands?
KATHI: One hand.
BILL: Okay. Right hand, left hand? His right or…
KATHI: Um… if I was sitting in a chair facing the television, I was facing this direction, if I were to come up to you it would be this hand on this shoulder.
BILL: So he faced you when he did this?
KATHI: Yes, and I was sitting down.
BILL: Okay.
KATHI: He took… as I was sitting down he was standing up. He jerked me up, and at that time I said, “There is no need to be physical. I have not resisted anything, from anybody, so far. If you would like to direct me someplace, I’ll go.” At that time he still had a grip of my shoulder, forcibly turned me around, and started manhandling me down the hallway. And I said, “Where are we going?” And I said, “If you direct, I can get there myself.” He says, “No, you’re not in charge here, I’m going to do it my way. I’m in charge, not you.”
BILL: Okay. You said he forcibly directed you. Did he actually have your shoulder, or did he just have your shirt?
KATHI: He had a handful of shirt.
BILL: Okay, so he didn’t have, actually have you…
KATHI: Right.
BILL: … he just had… He just had your shirt.
KATHI: Right.
BILL: Okay so he…..
KATHI: Up around my neck.
BILL: Okay.
KATHI: Just pulled up tight around my neck and my shoulder.
BILL: So did you end up with any bruising or anything….
KATHI: No.
BILL: ….as a result of his ????.
KATHI: No.
BILL: So, he then, he walked you to the seclusion room.
KATHI: Yes.
BILL: And when he got to the seclusion room…
KATHI: He said, “Go inside for time out.” And I said, “There is no statutory code to allow you to put me into time out.” And he said, “Yes, you have to go into time out.” And I said, “I am not dumb. I’m not going to walk into time out. If I walk into that room, its seclusion.” And I said, “If you put me into seclusion, I have to be posing a serious risk to myself, or others, and I’m not doing that. So is it going to be time out voluntary? Which I’m not volunteering? Or, are you going to put me in seclusion, and make it officially seclusion?” At that time, he pushed my back, both my shoulder blades into the room. He shut the door, he locked it, and I said, “So then you’re making this officially seclusion?” He said, “Yes.” And I said, “You need to tell the doctor what you just did, everything you did.” And apparently he didn’t do that either.
BILL: Okay well we will um, probably get a hold of your chart to see what he put in the chart.
KATHI: I heard a conversation when I was in the room that appeared to me he was talking to a doctor cause the phone rang, and I was laying on the floor. There was a crack in the door about an inch, my ear was in the crack. I heard Alex pick up the phone, and he said, “Yes, yes, no, the new admit, yes, the bipolar one, yeah, she’s been escalating all day, Okay, thank you.” That sounded to me like the words ‘she’s been escalating all day’ was grounds to have me involuntarily medicated, which is, to my understanding, not the spirit of the law and how it works and set by legislation.
BILL: Yeah, and this all surrounded your desire to get your sleep aid.
KATHI: Yes.
BILL: And at no point did you get mouthy with him, give him a hard time other than turning the TV on and off.
KATHI: I wasn’t… I was in a place where I did not feel like I wanted to be manipulated. Um, when I went back to the television, it was on. At that time, Alex had followed behind, not to far along. And, I sat back in a chair to watch it cause it was on. He shuts the TV off, he says, “It’s going to stay off, you’re not in charge of this place, I am.” I got up and turned the TV on. You got to remember the volume was low, the clients had just went to bed, it’s just a little bit after eleven o’ clock. This looked to me like a power play more than anything else. I was trying to keep myself busy, watch television. Remember, I’m an involuntary patient to begin with, and I’m waiting for them. Its already been like, twenty, thirty minutes to get the medication. So while I was watching TV, um.. They took it upon themselves to enter into some sort of a power play. They shut the TV off. And then, and then after I turned it on, I went back and sat down. And that’s when he came and grabbed my shirt. This was all verbal stuff. I did not touch staff physically. I did not endanger myself in any way with anything on the unit. This is just talking. Calm, calm talking. I also, I would like to add one more thing. When he put me into time out, he said, “Hospital policy. There is an arbitrary one hour rule” where he could put me into time out or seclusion at his own discretion, even though it is not an emergency. In other words, the doctor allows them the latitude to put me into seclusion for one hour. And I said, “This is incorrect, you can’t put a person in seclusion for one hour just because you decide to, even though it’s not an emergency, just because you decide I need to be in there.”
BILL: Did he say that that was hospital policy or that was.. or did he describe that as a um, as a state regulation?
KATHI: No, he doesn’t… He’s never said anything about state regulation. He said, “I’m allowed, I have the right, I’m allowed.” And the only thing I could think of, I surmise it must be hospital policy because it sure it isn’t in W&I code.
BILL: No, uh huh, its not.
KATHI: And the other thing I would like to say, because of these problems that they have, hospital policy versus law, there should be somebody to look at the quality control manual and a make revision. Have somebody actually responsible, the law versus policy, cause when it comes down to the errors, when it comes down to the oversight, the mental health worker with the least amount of training, has the most amount of contact with the client can say, ‘Well, we were trained this way, this is what we heard.’ So it needs to go back to somebody that’s designated in the quality control manual, so when they say, “This person told me, based on the quality control manual, this is policy…” That person can be held accountable, because right now there is no one held accountable. They’re just going to raise their hands and say, ‘Well, this is what I’ve always learned. This is what I was taught.’ And that’s not correct. That’s what quality control manuals are for.
BILL: Okay. Now you said you were an involuntary admit.
KATHI: Yes.
BILL: Why were you brought in?
KATHI: I was brought in involuntary to uh, ETS Riverside. At that time I told them I would like to go voluntary to a facility in Corona. They decided to keep me on a 5150 anyway, even though I had already requested to go somewhere else voluntarily. They sent me two hours away from my home, in the middle of the desert; after, I had told them I’d go voluntary to a place in Corona. So why I ended up in the desert, two hours away from my home, I don’t have a clue.
BILL: I don’t either.
KATHI: And that set the tone.
BILL: It’d be interesting to find out. At no time during the entire process did you give anybody a difficult time? At no time did you become combative?
KATHI: Well see… combative is an interpretation. Now, we have to remember, when I first came to the unit, I was tired, I was drugged. That night I went to bed cause it was too painful for me to stay awake, the drugs. For a moment, I did get up that night. I talked to one of the intake people, they gave me, asked me [for] some information. I answered the questions. Then I went immediately to bed. I was even too tired to get a drink of water.
BILL: This was at which facility now?
KATHI: Victor Valley.
BILL: Victor Valley.
KATHI: Yes. The next morning when I woke up, I’m looking for something to drink. I could not find anything other than a sink with foot pedals on it. There was not even a glass container for water. And I asked staff, I said, “I would like some orange juice, I’m thirsty.” And there was five of them in that little cubicle and um, they were discussing, I don’t know, about their kids, their house, you know, improvements. It didn’t seem to encompass any kind of a work related discussion. So I asked them, I said, “I would like something to drink, some orange juice.” They said, “You have to wait another hour before we can give you something to drink.” I said, “I would like to have something now. I was heavily drugged yesterday. I’m very thirsty.” And then she pointed to the sink with the two foot pedals. And I said, “There’s not even a glass, and the water is warm.” She goes, “That’s all we can do for now.” At that point I said, “Well, I’m going to sit here by the door until I can get some orange juice.” And then they said, “You are being threatening.” I’m sitting by the door, trying to get some orange juice, and they manipulate the situation. And to me, calling it ‘threatening’. So, I would imagine if somebody were to look at the progress notes, the multidisciplinary notes, they would probably say ‘the client has become threatening, has become combative. She’s sitting at the exit. She refuses to move.’ And it’s all blown out of proportion, and I doubt they even said why. I was just trying to get a glass of orange juice. Finally, about a minute later, one of them says, “Fine I’ll go get one.” She went to the other side of the door. She was back, in like, ten seconds. And this, after they said they didn’t have it on, within close proximity of the unit. So it was very frustrating to see these kinds of things happen.
BILL: What would you describe as combative? How would you define that?
KATHI: I would describe combative as….. Actually I don’t even think the term should exist, to tell you the truth. I think it’s a weak term. I think combative would be somebody that’s physically harming another person.
BILL: I just wanted to get your, what your ideas on that might be.
KATHI: I think threes a lot of psychology when it comes to… um charting. I think there is a lot of derogatory terms. They use threatening, combative, argumentative. And a lot of times I notice, and I’ve read many progress notes, many multidisciplinary notes, and they’ll use these terms to describe the person, rather than describe the behavior. I don’t think they should be describing ‘she’s combative.’ What I think they should say is, “We wouldn’t give her the orange juice. She’s upset. She’s sitting by the entry way, hoping we’ll give her some orange juice.” That would be the correct way to say it. That’s exactly what happened rather than for them to use their own perception and say ‘I’m combative.’ And it’s totally wrong, its incorrect charting.
BILL: Okay. Just trying to find out how you viewed, you know how we look at uh, the same kind of situation. So were you in seclusion then for an hour?
KATHI: All night.
BILL: You were in all night. You went in…
KATHI: I was in for one hour. Later he came in. He unlocked the door. It was about an hour, and I’m thinking, ‘Okay he’s coming back. I remember him saying something about a one-hour-rule, so its been about an hour and now he’s back’. He came in and he says, “You know Kathi, you’re letting the bipolar getting the best of you. You’re acting like a child. You’re so childish. This is crap.”
BILL: Say that again. What you just said, say that again. He came back to the door….
KATHI: He came back, he opened the door….
BILL: Okay.
KATHI: He walked in ….
BILL: And.
KATHI: He said, “Kathi, …..
BILL: Okay.
KATHI: …your letting your bipolar get the best of you.” And so he started lodging this criticism towards me. I became defensive and said, “Alex you can’t be locking me in here.” And then we sorted, exchanged some more words. He laughed and locked the door again. And at that point, I realized he was looking for an excuse to keep me in there for another arbitrary rule. For an arbitrary hour while he was waiting for something from the doctor. And at that point, about thirty minutes later, is when that phone call came.
BILL: So you were in an hour, and you went in about eleven p.m.?
KATHI: I’m thinking eleven, eleven fifteen.
BILL: Okay. He came back in an hour, it would be twelve fifteen, there about, between twelve and twelve fifteen.
KATHI: Right.
BILL: And then beyond that time, when was the next time he came back?
KATHI: The next time, I heard the phone call, what sounded to me, he was talking to a doctor, by saying, ‘she’s escalating.’ Within ten minutes the door opened. I saw two security personnel standing at the door with about eight staffers. There was about ten of them all together. And it looked like a show of force to me, obviously. And I knew, well… I already knew this was coming, when he hung up the phone and said, ‘she’s been escalating all day’, I knew the medication was going to come. I knew I was going to be forcefully drugged. I just knew it. And its… when that door opened and I saw them all standing there, I was prepared. I just stood up, laid on the bed, and I said, “I’m not going to fight you guys.” And then that’s when he gave me the shot. I said, “What are you giving me?” And nobody would talk. Nobody said a word. They wouldn’t tell me what was given. And I was trying to figure it out. Because you know, being allergic to certain kind of medications, having adverse reactions to certain kinds of medications. They just would not speak.
BILL: Had anybody um, during your admission ask you if you allergic to any medication?
KATHI: That is possible but I don’t recall. It could have been the first night when I got up out of bed. They did the intake thing….
BILL: Uh huh.
KATHI: …they could have asked me.
BILL: But you don’t remember that.
KATHI: But I don’t recall.
BILL: Do you recall any of that? Any parts of it at all?
KATHI: That first night when we did the intake, to me it sounded like routine questions. So nothing that stood out predominantly.
BILL: Do you remember the person who interviewed you?
KATHI: By sight only.
BILL: Okay. So now we have an hour, he came back in an hour….
KATHI: Yes.
BILL: Then he leaves again.
KATHI: Yes.
BILL: And the period of time between him leaving and the show of force was? Your best guess.
KATHI: Perhaps thirty to forty… it can be anywhere between fifteen to forty five minutes. But after he left there was that phone call from the doctor
BILL: Okay.
KATHI: I’m assuming it was a doctor cause it sounded to me like it was. After the phone call, it was within ten minutes from the phone call, before we had the show of force. They came in and involuntarily drugged me.
BILL: Okay, and then after they, after they involuntarily drugged you, the next time you saw him was?
KATHI: I didn’t see after that.
BILL: Okay.
KATHI: I woke up… After they involuntarily drugged me, for the next two to three hours, I sat there on the floor. … First of all, I just started laughing. I was just breaking down. I thought this was so ridiculous. And then I started singing, “Home on the Range” and “Puff the Magic Dragon” as loud as I could sing it to get all of this anxiety out of me. I did that for three hours. Yes, for three hours.
BILL: For three hours.
KATHI: Yes. And then I finally fell asleep. So, I’m guessing I was asleep maybe two, three hours. And then I woke up. I saw the door cracked, just about in inch. And I thought, ‘Okay, the door is open.’ And I was so drugged my eyelids hurt, painfully hurt. I thought, ‘I’m just going to close my eyes and go back to sleep.’
BILL: So you were on the floor all this time.
KATHI: Yes. And then I guess it was morning because a staffer came in and gave me some orange juice and said, “Kathi, here. You need to drink this, and you need to get your strength back.” And that really bugged me because the day before I had been trying to get orange juice and something to drink with so much resistance, massive, massive resistance. And I didn’t drink it. I was at that point… I wanted nothing to do with them. So I went back to sleep and then they came back again and said, “The doctor wants to see you.” Well, I went in to see the doctor. Do you want me to go on?
BILL: Go ahead.
KATHI: Okay. I went in to see the doctor, he was sitting opposite to me and he said, “How are you doing today?” or something to that effect. I said, “Not to well.” And then he was writing. He kept writing, and writing, and writing, and writing. And he wasn’t engaging in any conversation with me, anything meaningful. And my eyelids were just pulling down and it was just so hard for me to stay awake. And so finally I just said, “Doctor, we are not engaging in any meaningful conversation, I’m going to go to my room.” And so I just got up, and went to my room. And then later, they brought me back. They said, ‘Doctor wants to see you again’. I’m saying, ‘oh my God, I have to back with him again’. So I open my eyes. I went back, and he said, “Do you feel like you’re safe enough we can… I’d like to know you feel like… how you’re doing. How’s your safety? Do you feel dangerous to yourself?” I said, “Yes, of course I do.” He said, “Well Kathi, when you say things like, that’s a roadblock for us to release you.” I said, “Well, I volunteered to go to The Willows. If I tell you I’m fine, and I don’t have a problem, why would I go to Willows? I’d just check out here, say I’m fine, and then go over there and say I have a problem. That aint right. That doesn’t show any continuity at all. If anything, I’ve gotten worse. But, the way I understand the law, tonight at midnight, the seventy-two hours with be up. What I need to know from you, is if you’re gonna do the 5250, or if you’re going to let me go. Cause if you’re going to file a 5250, I want a writ filed immediately and I will let the judge explain to you how a 5250 works in the real world because I am volunteering to go somewhere else. You keep me here, and we’re (…inaudible…) to go through this whole thing again.” And then I got up and left again. And then I got another message an hour later or so. A staffer walked in and said, “Your friend is on her way down to pick you up.”
BILL: What day did you go to the hospital? What day did you go to…. Or were you taken to Riverside?
KATHI: I’m… Okay that would be… I was at Riverside all day the eleventh and the night prior cause I was… it was real late that night that I was brought in, the night prior. And I was up all night….
BILL: Do you know what the date is?
KATHI: I’m guessing it was…. See it was around midnight so that could have been right into the eleventh.
BILL: Okay so I’m going to … Okay.
KATHI: No tenth, eleventh. I mean right there is the threshold.
BILL: And when did you go to Victor Valley?
KATHI: It would have been the evening, I think I arrived there about five o’clock.
BILL: Of the eleventh.
KATHI: Of the twelfth. Wait, eleventh, yes. All of this happened on the twelfth.
BILL: And what time was it that you went there, you think approximately?
KATHI: About five o’clock. I remember Damian, he was um, he was very upset because this one….
BILL: Who’s Damian?
KATHI: The ambulance driver. Was this that Damian? He was extremely upset because it had taken him all day basically to make one delivery. And I remember him, he was saying, “Oh my God its five o’clock, I got to get off, I got to get home.” And that’s why five o’clock sticks out in my mind.
BILL: Okay. So you went there at five. You got to Victor Valley at five p.m.
KATHI: Approximately.
BILL: And the incident that we’re talking about took place on the eleventh…
KATHI: What incident?
BILL: The uh, the grab.
KATHI: That was twelfth, the following day. The eleventh is my arrival.
BILL: Okay so you arrive at Victor Valley on the eleventh….
KATHI: Yes, went to bed….
BILL: Okay, so you….
KATHI: I was gotten up an hour or so later. I don’t know. I’ve lost track of time, but I… sometime between five and the next morning, a staffer got me up. He asked me if I wanted… if I wanted dinner. Okay, so it must have been around dinnertime. They said, “Would you like dinner?” I said, “No. I just want to go back to sleep.” He says, “I’d like to ask you a few questions first, typical questions.” So I answered what seemed like routine intake questions to me.
BILL: Now this person, you never saw him again.
KATHI: I saw him the next day.
BILL: Okay.
KATHI: But not in with… not in problems with this particular person, that I recall.
BILL: So you slept through the night of the eleventh into the twelfth.
KATHI: Yes the morning of.
BILL: Okay. Then this incident occurred on the morning of the twelfth.
KATHI: Yeah the twelfth, that’s when everything started.
BILL: And you have an idea of approximately what time… Well then it would have been evening time cause you were asking for a sleeper, that this began.
KATHI: It started… let me refer to my notes.
BILL: I don’t remember reading it, I probably did ….
KATHI: It started seven a.m. on the twelfth. The first complaint was at seven a.m., the second complaint at eight forty five, the third complaint was 12:00 p.m., the fourth complaint was two p.m., and the next complaint was eight fifty five p.m., and then the last complaint, which I never really got to file, was at ten forty five p.m., which I had to file that the next day. So this is probably what they meant by saying ‘escalating all day.’ Um, I would say probably, they just…. ‘kept messing up all day.’
BILL: Okay. Now how well do you remember seeing some of these people so that um, we can get, we’ll take a description back to the hospital and see if we can locate these folks? Do you remember them well enough to describe them?
KATHI: Christina Cabrera here, um she’s known me for twelve years. She can tell you I’m the type of person; I have very hard time describing people, their features, their weight. I have to see an individual. If I saw the individual, I can say with without any um, ambiguity at all, ‘This is the person that did this, this is the person that said that.’ Ask me to describe it as ???, I have real a problem in those areas. I can tell you a couple of people that I do remember.
BILL: Okay. Do you have then? Yeah, Okay. Um, do you remember names of any theses individuals?
KATHI: Um, as far as I know, the one that was, that had the massive resistance on the orange juice, his name was um, Paris.
BILL: First name or last name?
KATHI: I don’t know. He’s a tall individual; he has lots of acne scars.
BILL: About how tall?
KATHI: I’m guessing six foot or higher.
BILL: How tall are you?
KATHI: Five nine.
BILL: Okay was he taller than you?
KATHI: Yes, I’m guessing six foot or higher. Now he was a mental health worker. There was also another mental health worker; there was two of them.
BILL: Okay, let’s focus on Paris just for a minute. Whatever you can recall. About how old?
KATHI: Twenties.
BILL: Mid-twenties, late twenties, early twenties.
KATHI: It’s hard to say.
BILL: Any idea about what his weight might have been approximately? Was he skinny, was he….
KATHI: He looked to me, he didn’t look thin, and he didn’t look fat….
**Tape recording stops, Tape 1, side A ends
**Tape recording restarts, Tape 1, side B begins
BILL: Okay we’re back. So lets go back to Paris. Twenties, male, six plus, in height six foot plus, and height, weight, you were ….
KATHI: I would say weight, he didn’t look abnormally thin, abnormally overweight, I’d just say he’s average.
BILL: Okay. Any idea as to what his ethnic background might have been?
KATHI: I’m guessing white. Short hair.
BILL: What color hair did he have?
KATHI: I recall its like brown maybe, blond, brown.
BILL: Did he have any facial hair, beard, mustache?
KATHI: Not that I recall.
BILL: How about eye color?
KATHI: I don’t know, wouldn’t have an idea.
BILL: Glasses?
KATHI: Not that I recall.
BILL: Anything, any distinguishing characteristics about him?
KATHI: Heavy acne scars.
BILL: That’s right you did say that. Anything besides that?
KATHI: That’s it.
BILL: Who would be the next person ????? There’s an Alex that I read. Did I read something about an Alex?
KATHI: I’d like to ??? discuss. There was two mental health workers and we’ve discussed Paris, there’s another mental health worker.
BILL: Okay, Okay.
KATHI: I don’t know his name. He has black hair, long, down his back. Ponytail in the back. At the lower base of the neck there’s a ponytail. Um, he looked like he could have been of Latin decent, um dark features, it seemed like he had a clear complexion and his height, he was probably about my height, maybe a little taller.
BILL: And you said you’re five nine.
KATHI: Yes.
BILL: Okay. Age?
KATHI: Um, early thirties possibly.
BILL: But you don’t remember a name?
KATHI: No.
BILL: You don’t remember hearing anybody calling him by a name? A name badge on?
KATHI: I don’t recall.
BILL: Um, did he have any facial hair?
KATHI: I don’t recall.
BILL: And did he wear glasses or anything that you remember?
KATHI: No, he didn’t.
BILL: Okay. Okay, another one.
KATHI: Alex.
BILL: Okay I assume that is a first name?
KATHI: Yes.
BILL: What is he?
KATHI: From my understanding he was a charge nurse. Um, I would say he is probably my height and I’m five nine. It seemed like he was of Latin decent.
BILL: Age?
KATHI: Late thirties, early forties.
BILL: Weight?
KATHI: Normal build.
BILL: Hair color?
KATHI: Black and uh, he was wearing all, it seemed like he was wearing a white shirt, maybe white scrubs.
BILL: Any facial hair at all?
KATHI: Not that I recall.
BILL: And did he happen to wear glasses at all?
KATHI: Not that I recall.
BILL: Anything else that you might remember about him? The kind of shoes that he wore. Did he wear something on his head? Did he wear any particular kind of pin? People always find me because [they] will remember that I love my job.
KATHI: No. You know what though? You know what I think would be real helpful? Is if there might be something posted on the wall when we write complaints? If you write down shoe colors, hair colors, eye brows, ear piercings. That would be real helpful as patients if we had something visible that could help us. As many times as I’ve been hospitalized, and talked to patients rights, I’ve never had to come up with eye color and things like this. And it’s very difficult. If I had know that up front… if it was posted on the wall, ‘Please give this information’, I would absolutely done it.
BILL: Well, it is one of the problems that I run across no matter who we talk to when we get to talk to people about…
KATHI: Well, if that’s a problem, we can fix that by posting it.
BILL: Yeah, that’s the hospital. And you know the hospital is not going to change their complaint form to suit you, me, Arimi, Christ; they’re not going to do it.
KATHI: And why… why do you say… suppose that is?
BILL: Because they don’t want their folks identified.
KATHI: Okay.
BILL: Why do I ask you if they wore a badge? And why would they not wear a badge?
KATHI: Many times I’ve seen badges and they’re half way inside their shirt, they’re flipped out backwards, or they’re flipped around the back of they’re neck. Um, there’s several times I’ve asked people what their name is and where’s their badges, and they refuse to turn around. They don’t want to be identified.
BILL: Well they cant do that either.
KATHI: But they do it.
BILL: Okay but they can’t do that ??????. Mine will float. See where it is now.
KATHI: Yeah.
BILL: There’s a swivel on it, it does this all day long. In the wing it looks like a propeller. But if somebody says to me, ‘Who are you?’ I flip it over, show it to them. I generally do that, “Does that look like me?” Of course it doesn’t. This looks like Mickey Mouse, and I look like Goofy.
KATHI: Thirty days ago, when I was in ETS, when the uh, I think she was a med nurse, she was in the back. And she was saying that, “according to JACHO, they didn’t have to carry complaint forms on the unit.” And I said, “Yeah you do. You have to.” She goes, “Not on emergency we won’t. On the other units we do.” I said, “What’s your name?” And she looked at everybody else like, ‘Don’t tell her my name’. I said, “I’d like your name.” And she wouldn’t give it to me. I had to write down her hair color, her… all. All because she refused to give me her name. And this is not that uncommon. This happens quite frequently.
BILL: It absolutely does, and wearing badges you um, you will find them inside shirts. You will find them under, like if you have uh, if that’s like an over shirt or something, they’ll tuck them underneath. They’ll put them on their belt and the shirt comes down and hangs over. The scrubs hang over; you can never find out who they are.
KATHI: Right.
BILL: Okay anybody else beyond Alex that you can recall?
KATHI: If I could see the person who told me about the phone situation; she’s the one who said, “We’re aware of the problem, it happens more in wet weather.” The way she said it was like, this is an occurrence that happens all the time. I know she was an older lady, she was a bit overweight, and she was sitting, if I’m looking into the nurse’s station, she was sitting to the right, to the back.
BILL: Did you see her stand up?
KATHI: No, she was just sitting down.
BILL: How old was she?
KATHI: I’m guessing in her fifties.
BILL: And would you say that she was a nurse or um what? Any idea?
KATHI: Well, she was charting, so who knows.
BILL: Okay. Any idea as to what her weight is?
KATHI: Um I’m guessing maybe thirty, forty pounds over weight.
BILL: Which would make her approximately….
KATHI: Well, I didn’t see her stand up so….
BILL: Just guess. I mean I know you didn’t see her stand up. So just from sitting down, could you guess?
KATHI: Well okay. Lets see… what would be the normal weight for somebody who is five six?
BILL: You think that’s how tall she might have been?
KATHI: Yeah.
CRISTINA: Like one thirty.
KATHI: One thirty. So lets add forty pounds to that. Would that be one seventy? Okay.
BILL: And do you know what he ethnic background might have been? Is she Caucasian….
KATHI: Caucasian.
BILL: Hair color.
KATHI: I’m thinking towards light.
BILL: Light as in brown?
KATHI: Well, not black.
BILL: Gray? Ooh wait a minute, did I say that?
KATHI: Yes, it could have been gray. I mean yes, but it wasn’t black.
BILL: Okay, and how about the length of her hair or the way she wore it?
KATHI: I don’t know, I can’t remember.
BILL: Did she have any facial hair? I’m only kidding. Did she wear glasses at all?
KATHI: I don’t recall.
BILL: Any distinguishing characteristics that you might recall about her? Color of scrubs that she wore? Did she wear something that was unique in terms of scrubs or shoes?
KATHI: You know how it is sometimes when you get into a room, and all of a sudden, memory starts comes flooding back because your sentries started to get engaged, the smell, the sight. That’s why if I were to see her, I’d be like… that’s her. So right now I’m only, I’m only, I’m very limited with my sentries and this is all I can remember about her.
BILL: Okay that’s fine, we’ll take that. We’ve had people on less than that.
ARIMI: Is the lady that usually sits um, in the like kind of like a nurses station, as soon as you walk up to the little window, she’s usually….
KATHI: She’s, yeah, she sits behind, she’s kind of like in the corner and she never comes out. I’ve never seen her out; I’ve never seen her out. She’s just kind of glued to that seat.
ARIMI: Okay.
BILL: Is there a computer in front of her?
KATHI: Yeah by the (…inaudible…) could have been. Um, the other person was, I guess it would be the daytime charge nurse. And her hair was, I mean I guessing she’s probably in her forties, could be early thirties. Hair light. It seems to me it was um, it was just, its like shoulder length or higher, and it could have been even shorter than that. It seemed like… there was like… full head of hair but on light side.
BILL: The light side of brown?
KATHI: We could, yeah it could have been, I would say lighter than brown.
BILL: Okay.
KATHI: And her height, I would, I’m guessing probably maybe between five seven, five nine.
BILL: And you’re saying “she” so I’m assuming it’s a female.
KATHI: Uh huh.
BILL: And glasses or anything?
KATHI: Don’t recall. I do recall she was the charge nurse because she kept going to that little office. You know those big round pillars they got in there?
BILL: Yeah.
KATHI: Okay. You got the, like the, the exit door and they go that little square cubicle rectangle by the exit door?
BILL: Yeah.
KATHI: Just across from the cubicle you open this one little round thing and you got that office in there. That was her desk. She sat there. So I’m thinking she’s a charge nurse.
BILL: Yeah, I think you may be right. I know what you’re talking about. Anything distinguishing about her that you recall?
KATHI: Uh uh.
BILL: Type of scrubs, did she wear street clothes, uh…
KATHI: She, I… this is quite possible. I know she could have been. She was wearing something light. It could have been scrubs. Um it didn’t seem like it was dark clothing, it was light blue, light clothing.
BILL: Okay shoes, nothing particular. The reason I keep asking about shoes, we had an incident where we identified a person off their shoes. If you believe that. They wore unique shoes and the person remembered them. So that’s why I mean, I keep going to shoes to see if you would recall anything
KATHI: Well, the reason why I ask it, now this is the one… that when I asked her noting, she’s charge nurse because I was looking for somebody that was in that capacity. And by looking around, surveillance the area, looking at people and kind of their job functions or descriptions. She seemed to me to look like somebody that was a charge nurse.
BILL: Okay.
KATHI: Maybe I seen her walk out of her office or something… or something. And I said, “ Are you the charge nurse?” And she said, “yes” and I said, “When I need something, who do I go to?” And she said, “We have two mental health workers on the floor. Right now there’re busy. And if you want something, your needs and wants will have to wait.” An so then, I told um… I said, “I need some toiletry articles.” And then she said, “Okay.” So she went to get them for me. She opened the door. It was like one door down from her office and she, (as you go around that, that circular thing, there was a supply room), she got me an article and she gave it to me. And then I said, … So in [my] mind, at that point what’s going through my mind was, ‘I have…My needs have to wait, until the… cause mental health workers are busy.’ But here again, she just gave me something’ so I’m thinking there’s a distortion going on, cause obviously if my needs have to wait, but she just helped me. Maybe she can help me again. So then I asked her again if I need… I said, “Can you give me more.” She said, “No.” I said, “If I need more later, who do I go to?” And she says, “I said we have two mental health workers. Do you understand English?” Which I thought that was kind of ??? demeaning since…..
BILL: What did this lady weigh?
KATHI: Pounds for overweight, not much. I mean every woman thinks they’re overweight. Right?
BILL: Five seven, um at five seven some people carry some weight so are we talking one fifty, sixty, seventy….
KATHI: Yeah probably….
BILL: eighty….
KATHI: Yeah, well yeah, not…
BILL: …three fifty?
KATHI: No.
BILL: Okay.
KATHI: Not over two hundred pounds.
BILL: So overweight could be at five seven….
KATHI: I’m, I’m guessing maybe twenty pounds, twenty-five pounds.
BILL: That still doesn’t give me an idea as to what it is.
KATHI: Okay let’s say she’s one, five seven, at one thirty, one fifty. Okay I’m guessing one sixty, one seventy.
BILL: And of what was her ethnic background?
KATHI: White.
BILL: Anybody else?
KATHI: Um….
BILL: You know if you don’t [remember] them or you can’t think of them now, we can always…..
KATHI: I would say that doctor. Obviously the doctor. And because he is the one who okayed for me to be forcefully drugged under the fraud of ‘she’s escalating’.
BILL: Okay, but you don’t… you only heard that telephone conversation. You didn’t see that chart, did you?
KATHI: No.
BILL: Okay, so we don’t really… you don’t really know… we would not be able to find him short of looking in the chart to find out ‘who’ that was that he told.
KATHI: That’s right.
BILL: Okay. So you didn’t hear a name.
KATHI: Well, how do these doctors work? If my doctor was there during the day and he went home, would he be on-call later?
BILL: He could be.
KATHI: Okay so I’m, that’s what I’m thinking is….
BILL: Or they could have um, they could have somebody that would cover the night shift also. There is really, there….
KATHI: The reason, the only reason I say that, is because it sounded like whoever he was talking to was somewhat familiar with the case, cause he said, “The bipolar one.” And then he said, “No, Yeah, right, that one.” So it was like they made a connection.
BILL: Okay.
ARIMI: I think, and I think Victor Valley, one doctor is the main, only psychiatrist there. I think Dr. Ohaeri. Does that sound familiar?
KATHI: He’s African American?
ARIMI: He has an accent.
KATHI: That’s him.
BILL: But how would you know that? Did you see him?
KATHI: At the time of the discussion? No. I saw him during the day. Based on the way he was getting information out of me, he didn’t seem like he was engaged. He didn’t seem like he was really interested in what was going on with me. So based on my interaction with him during the day, and what I heard what went on that phone call, I’m thinking, it sounds like the same guy.
BILL: And about how tall was he, the doctor you saw?
KATHI: I… he was sitting down.
BILL: Okay, but he was African American?
KATHI: Yes.
BILL: About how old was he? I know Dr. Ohaeri so I know who he….
KATHI: Well, you know with that ethnic background they hide their age real well.
BILL: Well what do you think? Fifties?
KATHI: I don’t know.
BILL: Any idea as to what he weighed?
KATHI: I would he say he’s on the heavy side, heavier side.
BILL: Two hundred?
KATHI: You’ve got me. You gotta remember I’m sitting across from a guy, behind a desk….
BILL: We’ll leave that one alone, we’ll leave it alone.
KATHI: Yeah.
BILL: How about his hair color?
KATHI: I don’t recall. Black.
BILL: Why do you say that?
KATHI: It just seemed like it was black hair; I don’t know. Okay, could then… maybe he don’t have hair. Maybe he didn’t have hair. That could be possible too. Maybe this guy is bald.
BILL: He is.
KATHI: Yeah, I thought… well you know what, it came to me. Maybe he’s bald.
BILL: I believe Dr. Ohaeri is pretty much bald, if not totally already shaved what little he has left.
KATHI: See. Well, some things did come back.
BILL: Yeah. Um, did he have, do you remember him having a beard or a mustache?
KATHI: I don’t recall.
BILL: Did he wear glasses?
KATHI: Don’t recall.
BILL: Anything distinguishing about him?
KATHI: This is um, um….
BILL: That accent.
KATHI: Not, I… it could have been. I didn’t have very much conversation with him. I do recall that, though, he seemed like he had this… seemed like a bland lack of interest in what was going on with me as an individual.
BILL: ?????? And you can’t think of ???? that…..
KATHI: Taking ???????.
BILL: If you think???? you think of it when you’re at home or something comes to you um, give us a call and we can get the information from you by phone. That would not be a problem. Now when, when…..
KATHI: Well, I would like to say one thing.
BILL: Sure.
KATHI: I walked back in my room and found out it wasn’t my room no more.
BILL: Okay.
KATHI: They had moved me and I didn’t know that until I walk in, and um, my things are gone….
BILL: This is coming back from talking to the doctor.
KATHI: This is after… yeah. This is after talking to the doctor. And they said, “Your room has been moved.” And I said, “That ain’t right. I mean, no one invited me to move the room. Why did you move me?” And he said, “Well, we have new admits.” I said, “Well, that doesn’t make sense to me. Explain to me how ‘new admits’ means [you] need to move me. I want to understand that, so I could be okay with that one.” I said, “Well, (…inaudible…)” [They said,] “We’re just doing what we’re told. We have new admits.” So I decided to do some investigative work myself. So I went into my room and I ask my roommate, I said, “Are we okay together.” She goes, “Oh yeah, yeah, right.” And then I said to the other girl, there was a new girl in there, I said, “Are you here for depression?” And she said, “Yes.” So I’m putting two-and-two together, I said, “Well I’m here for depression, she’s here for depression, she’s in the same room, we’re about the same criteria for fitting that bed. Why am I moved out of bed, and why is she staying in the bed?” Later, during the day my roommate said, “I really miss you, I miss you. I’m sorry they moved you out of the room.” So we didn’t have any problems between us. I still don’t know to this day why they moved me from that room without even asking me, just up and moved me.
BILL: Do you have any guess as to why they moved you?
KATHI: I’m guessing um, the only… it would only be a guess. I don’t know.
BILL: Well that’s all it can be is a guess because we cant read someone’s mind at this point but what is your feeling as why you were moved?
KATHI: I think its possible because I was forthcoming and honest about my background. There’s possibly a bias there that I went through SRS, Sex Reassignment Surgery and I think that could be possible. But if that was true, they should have brought me into a room and said, “Kathi, we have some concerns about this.” Or whatever they… and that’s how we build strong therapeutic alliances. Honesty. By discussing with the client why they’re going to move him. Just to arbitrarily do it, they’re leaving me to my [own] devices. They’re leaving me to, you know… my own whims… to try… You’ll see it when a person is in a mental hospital. They’re depressed, they’re isolated, and so they’ll think the worse of the situation. So I’m in a situation, they’ve moved me, and I’ going to think the worse. And they didn’t do anything to clear that up.
BILL: Did they put you out [with] another person in the room that you were moved to?
KATHI: No, by myself.
BILL: Okay, you had a one-bed room?
KATHI: Yes, without a reason. There was no reason given, other than ‘new admits.’
BILL: Its not very … You’re right. They should have told you. During this whole process, um…tell me a little bit about… and I know we’ve talked a little bit about this to me. A little bit about the um, demeanor, tone of voice of the individuals that you’ve revealed today. You can do it by, you know, we can go through this list starting with Paris, was the first one that we have here.
KATHI: Well….
BILL: What was, what was his demeanor….
KATHI: It wasn’t Paris, it was… lets start at the beginning, um it was first thing as soon as I got up at seven am in the morning when I asked for orange juice, and in that room was a lot of staffers. They seemed to be fine until I asked him for orange juice and then he said, “Well you have to wait till seven.” And then when I said I didn’t want to wait till seven, then he started to tighten up, a little more resistant. They said, “Well you’ll have to wait till seven.” And I said, “Cant you get to the refrigerator? Can’t you go and get some orange juice?” And so as I kept questioning them, they became more and more annoyed with my questions. It looked to me, it was, I became a problem for staff convenience. It looked to me they were more there for ‘them’ than for me as a client. They weren’t there to take care of me. I needed to be taken of and they were more interested about talking about their daily politics. So that set the tone.
BILL: Instead of doing this, instead of going through each of these….
KATHI: Yes.
BILL: ….tell me in general what you thought the staffs demeanor was towards you in general. Were they friendly, were they happy to see, were they P.O.’d that you were asking questions of them, were they rude, did they swear at you? What did they do?
KATHI: They hit all those at points in time.
BILL: Okay.
KATHI: I would say the overall atmosphere was ‘resistant.’
BILL: Okay.
KATHI: It looked to me like if we didn’t ask for anything we would be fine. The minute we asked for something, or the minute that they wanted to manipulate us, ‘stand here,’ ‘stand there,’ ‘go over here,’ you know. And the minute I was trying to manage my own life, they didn’t like that. So overall, the tone that I would basically say, they wanted their day to go as smooth as possible without having anybody requesting anything of them. And by me getting moved out of my room, I…. “Why?” They didn’t like me to ask, “Why did you move me?” When I asked for orange juice, they didn’t want to be disrupted from the conversation. When I was at lunch, (and at lunchtime they don’t serve any juices or milk, they just [have] iced tea), I wasn’t eating. And I said, “I’d like some milk and juice.” And then they’d say, “No, you have to write it on this piece of paper, we turn it in, and the next day we’ll bring it out.” I said, “I’m just here, I would like some milk and juice.” It was very resistive. Then they would say some things like, “It’s the hospital rules and we only have a certain amount of funding, and we’re very limited in our resources and…” I was getting all kinds of reasons. Just resistant, resistant, resistant.
BILL: Okay. Back to the TV for a minute. When you turned it on, they turned it off. You turned it on, they turned it off. Did they give you the hospital policy as to what use of the TV is?
KATHI: Yes.
BILL: The TV has to go off.
KATHI: Yeah.
BILL: When did the TV have to go off?
KATHI: They told me the TV stayed off during groups. The TV stays off after eleven o’clock.
BILL: Okay, and the time that the off/on, off/on, thing went, took place, do you remember what the time was?
KATHI: As far as I know, they way I understand it, the hospital, Title 22, Title 9, are in conflict. I don’t care what’s the hospital policy. If they want that off, they need to put Plexiglas around it with a remote control. It was there, the sound was low, I wanted to watch it. If they engineered wrong, I can’t be held liable for that. You know, tell them to talk to their engineers. The TV was there, I was waiting for my meds, I turn it on. How dare they comeback and say we told you what the hospital policy is, you’ve decided to watch TV, we turn it off and that’s why we put you in seclusion. I really don’t care. They can’t do that. Their policy does not supercede the law.
BILL: Okay.
KATHI: Tell their engineers to get an education in W&I Code.
BILL: Like they could all stand to get and education on that.
KATHI: Yes.
BILL: When… I’m jumping around here and I know I am. I asked you whether had….
** Tape recording stops, Tape 1 Side B ends.
** Tape recording restarts, Tape 2, Side A begins.
BILL: We’re back. I asked you how they spoke to you and I asked you if they had cursed at you.
KATHI: Right.
BILL: Do you remember what words they used when they swore at you?
KATHI: Yes, the cursing um, didn’t start until the second time Alex came into the room and I was on the floor….
BILL: So it was Alex that cursed at you?
KATHI: Yes and that’s when… And I didn’t really even mind. To tell you the truth, I wasn’t offended. What offended me was more his attitude. If he had the desire to help, the desire to understand, some workability, the cursing wouldn’t bother me. What bothered me was it came across in a demeaning way, and I remember [what] his first word was when I was laying on the floor. He says, “You’re just letting this bipolar get the best of you, you’re acting like such a child, you’re so childish, this is crap.” He’s the first one who said ‘crap’ and then I probably followed up with something like, “No, I think this is crap.”
BILL: Is that the strongest word that he used?
KATHI: Well no, but I’m not gonna go into that.
BILL: So he did get stronger than that?
KATHI: Well yeah, and I, I matched it.
BILL: Okay. Now when you heard them laughing, you were laying on the floor with you ear against the crack….
KATHI: Yes.
BILL: You heard them laughing.
KATHI: Yes.
BILL: Could you identify any of the people that… um from, were any of the people that were laughing, any of the people that you described?
KATHI: It was all women; you know voices, whoever was in that cubicle. I mean you’ve got two ladies that are sitting to the right. I think one is sitting in the opposite. Alex was in there, so it sounded like there was like three ladies and Alex.
BILL: Were any of the ladies the ones that we had to do, work out a definition on?
KATHI: Its laughter, I mean how do you identify laughter. Its just, I …
BILL: You could identify my laughter.
KATHI: Well, it was like, it wasn’t one person, it wasn’t a solo, it was in harmony.
BILL: Okay that would make it difficult. Now you talked about a Pete as one of the staff members.
KATHI: Which page?
BILL: Good question. I didn’t…
KATHI: Thanks for brining that to my attention. I didn’t talk about that. If not, we can go back to it later.
BILL: Okay. Um, number five, fourth one.
KATHI: Yeah Pete, Pete’s the guy with the uh, the tall guy with the acne scars. I think that’s Pete.
BILL: Now Pete or Paris?
KATHI: No, Paris I think that was… I’m having trouble between Paris, I know there was a lady at nine, um….
BILL: Now Paris is a male, is that correct?
KATHI: I don’t know. I know there was a male and a female.
BILL: Okay.
KATHI: Pete and Paris. I’m, you know, its like since then a month since this happened. Pete was.. Paris, Pete, there was… it was a tall guy, the one we spoke about earlier.
BILL: Okay.
KATHI: He was standing in front of the TV and then when I went to, ([he was] guarding the button), and then when I would go back to get the medications, and they kept saying, “No, not now” I would come back. And then when I came back the last time, the tall guy was gone. And a gal walked by, she flicked it off and then [as] she walked on, and I flicked it back on. She came back… and that’s… she’s the one [that] said, “If you do it again, you’re going to go into seclusion and restraints.” Now I could be wrong, and maybe his name was Pete, her name was Paris. I don’t know, I just remember….
BILL: Could you describe that… you described her as a six foot plus. Do you remember the gal that flicked the TV off?
KATHI: Yeah she was um,
BILL: Was she any….
KATHI: She’s the one that was leaning up against the counter. Um I only saw her, that was the first time I saw them. [meaning Alex and night shift].
BILL: Okay but was she was she taller than six foot?
KATHI: No, no.
BILL: Okay then we have a little bit of a problem here as to whether Pete and Paris are the same person, or Pete is what we described as Paris and Paris is a different person.
KATHI: Well just to save argument, lets go with the tall guy, the heavy acne scars, that was real resistant. He’s the one that guarded the TV and kept turning it on and off. He’s the one that was that mental health worker…
BILL: Right.
KATHI: And um, …. And lets go with that.
BILL: As Pete?
KATHI: As John Doe.
BILL: Cause that’s what he looked like.
BILL: Okay. Can you tell me about Pete?
KATHI: It’s been a month.
BILL: Okay you don’t recall then.
KATHI: I just recall people with faces, um getting peoples name from me is a real challenge. It was a challenge to [get] their name.
BILL: So it’s this gentleman that we’ve just identified as John Doe as the person who was standing in front of the TV turning it on and off.
KATHI: Yes, and he was also the person that was handing out the snacks during the day. His name could have been… Where did I bring up Paris? When was the first time I brought up the name Paris? That could have been her name, his name could have been Pete, its possible.
BILL: Okay let me go back here and see if we can find it.
KATHI: From my understanding there is only two mental health workers that day. And he was day shift. As a matter of fact, the gal, she was his relief at night, the one that threatened S&R, she’s the one that relieved him, she’s night shift. So I’m guess his name was Pete then. That’s probably what it was, Pete.
BILL: Okay.
KATHI: I mean I’m going back on my, the complaint, that’s what I have so.
BILL: I’m trying to, I just want to get it straight so that, so we know what we are going to be looking for.
KATHI: Right. Well I’m going to go back, since this was written the very next day, I’m going to go with Pete cause, you know.
BILL: I remember reading Paris in here somewhere.
ARIMI: So the guy standing near, near the TV, is that the long ponytail, black hair, Latin, dark….
KATHI: No, no, no.
ARIMI: Okay so then that’s, that’s Pete.
KATHI: Everything that had to do with the real tall guy, the acne scars….
ARIMI: Okay that’s Pete or Paris.
KATHI: Pete or Paris, right.
ARIMI: Okay.
KATHI: Pete or Paris, right. I’m guessing Pete.
BILL: That was the guy with the heavy acne.
KATHI: Yes. I would say that between the two people who were the main ‘pain’ was him and Alex and that doctor for letting it happen. Did they ever get those phones fixed over there? Do you know?
BILL: I would not, that I would not know. But it would not surprise me at all if which she told me wasn’t true that um, when the weather gets bad things go South. I would not be a bit surprised about that.
KATHI: The only reason I was saying that is um, when I was talking to Christina on the phone, I kept having to move the coil around. If I got it in just the right place…
BILL: Yeah.
KATHI: …we had a connection. But if I just started to lean too much this way it’d break up. So I’d have to be talking to her messing around with the doggone metal coil all the time.
BILL: It sounds like you got a break in the line which wouldn’t be a bit surprise either, given the abuse that the phone probably gets.
KATHI: See that’s the… they had a stall next to that one where it looked like a phone used to be and they probably pulled it out and maybe they decided not to replace it.
BILL: Could be.
KATHI: And what I’m thinking is, they have to provide a phone.
BILL: Yes.
KATHI: Yup and they obviously didn’t want to.
BILL: Absolutely. You submitted, you submitted these complaints to Victor Valley…
KATHI: No way. I submitted the first five in writing, I submitted it to them, and what I wrote on the complaint was, ‘This is supposed to go directly to The Patient Department of Patients’ Rights, the County’. I put, ‘County Department of Patients’ Rights’. And they said, “We’d like to resolve this through our own, through our own resolutions.” I said, “No because it’s biased. You guys are all working for the hospital, you get your paychecks from the hospital.” I said, “I want this for the County, The San Bernardino County of Patients’ Rights. Quite frankly, I don’t trust you guys.” Did you ever receive them?
BILL: Didn’t you ever receive them?
KATHI: Never received them?
ARIMI: We rarely receive complaints from Victor Valley. And regardless of whether they resolve their own complaints, well that’s what they’re supposed to do, you know, to resolve their own complaints, but they still have to send monthly copies of the complaints.
KATHI: Well especially if I write it in handwriting ‘For Patients Rights, County of San Bernardino’.
ARIMI: Yeah.
KATHI: And it never got here.
ARIMI: And they should also have envelopes available there so you have you know the option to mail it directly to Patients’ Rights from the hospital.
KATHI: Or from what I understand, we can give it to a staffer and it’s their job….
ARIMI: To mail it.
KATHI: ….cause we put it into there custody. Its up to them to guard that and be accountable for that and get it to you.
BILL: They should mail it.
KATHI: So if I gave you five of them and they never got to you, what about like every…. I’m starting to wonder about this place.
BILL: Well don’t, because you already know.
KATHI: Yes.
BILL: There really is no wonder to that at all. Do you remember who you submitted your complaints to?
KATHI: I submitted, well I think I don’t know, I don’t recall. I remember the charge nurse, the one I identified earlier, this being in the round little room. She came to me and she wanted to talk about it. And I said, “I don’t want to talk to you about this.”
BILL: In the daytime ????.
KATHI: Yes I said, “I don’t want to talk to you about this, I want this to go the appropriate person.” She gave it to somebody up the line somewhere because like an hour or so later, somebody from administration came in and talked to me. They said, “Would you like to talk about this?” I go, “No.”
BILL: Did you get that persons name?
KATHI: No I didn’t.
BILL: Did you get a description of what that person looked like?
KATHI: No I didn’t.
BILL: All right.
ARIMI: Male or female?
KATHI: Female.
BILL: Black, white, Latino?
KATHI: Its um, its you know, I just remember I was really disgusted at the time. I felt like I was getting passed off, and so I didn’t talk to her very long.
BILL: Okay. You know we told you that they, we never got those things, so.
KATHI: Right you never got the complaints.
BILL: I never, they were never forwarded.
KATHI: I faxed some copies of them. You got the copies I faxed you. I faxed Pete copies of those complaints.
BILL: Yes that’s what we have.
KATHI: Okay and that’s all I have is copies, they asked me, if I want to keep the original and I said, “No I want you to have the originals, I just want the copies.
ARIMI: Well they’re supposed to keep the original.
KATHI: Yeah and that’s what I did.
BILL: Did we get copies of those?
ARIMI: I have not seen, no.
BILL: You had copies of the complaints that you completed.
ARIMI: Of the actual complaint form.
KATHI: I every time I gave them a complaint I said, “I want a copy.” Because I knew this kind of stuff goes on.
BILL: Did we get copies if Pete, Pete does, I know I don’t.
KATHI: He said he… when I talked to Pete, he said he didn’t get them. In fact….
ARIMI: Okay then you probably do need to fax them.
KATHI: …what Pete told [me] was, “We’re going to add this to the complaint that, because we should have had them Kathi, but we didn’t get them so we’re going to make that part of the complaint.”
ARIMI: And what month…
BILL: That would have been last month.
KATHI: Well yeah, that would have been, yeah, in November.
BILL: Uh huh.
ARIMI: November, Okay so yeah we should have, well its still, I mean sometimes it does take them, you know a while to get their complaints in. So we’ll see. Well it’s the seventeenth, no we should have received it by now but again they usually claim they don’t have complaints. Now the Patients’ Rights poster, I know the phone was at times you know bad, but I mean, were able to give Patients’ Rights a call and maybe at that time submit your complaint?
KATHI: It was on a, lets see, what day was this on? Um…
ARIMI: So if it was on a weekend, yeah you would not have….
KATHI: I can’t remember what days this was on, but from my experience um, I can’t remember if that…. The problem, the phone was goofy, even the, when she came to use the phone, she didn’t believe me, so she started punching in the numbers herself to call Christina. And then I said, “What? Its busy?” She goes, “No, I can’t even make a connection.” I go, “There you go.” So it was just, I just remember I was fed up with the phones, I was just fed up with everything so I just thought I’d write things down. And the barrier between calling Patients’ Rights was I was trying to recall if I didn’t have money on me for one thing, number two, the phone wasn’t working correctly, and number three, you see a lot of times when I’ve called Patients’ Rights, I used to get a busy signal and I’ve never tried your number so I didn’t know if I would get a busy signal….
BILL: You wouldn’t, you’ve have got, if you didn’t catch Arimi, you would have gotten an answering machine.
KATHI: Right. Well that’s what I mean, an answering machine. Um, and so at that point I didn’t think I wasn’t going to be longer than another day anyway.
BILL: But they didn’t offer you another phone?
KATHI: Uh, offer….
BILL: You asked for it.
KATHI: I kept, I put her in a “yes or no” situation. I said, “Your phone doesn’t work, I would like to use another phone. Will you make another phone available to me?” She just stared at me. I said, “Okay this is a yes or no question. ‘Yes’ you’ll let me use another phone or ‘no’ you won’t.” And she just stared at me. I said, “So its, if its not yes or no, then its no.” She goes, "Whatever you want, you make it however you see it.” So that to me is a no.
CRISTINA: A few times that a woman called me and then said, “Kathi on to talk to you” and then she’d put you on the phone. So I don’t know if she was letting you use her phone or if she was at the payphone or what. [Note: This happened only after I was told to get ready to be released.]
KATHI: I don’t recall. But the time when she tried to call you, she couldn’t get through because I thought maybe she got a busy signal. I said, “Well if she’s busy try the other number.” And that’s when she said, “No its not busy, I cant make a connection.”
BILL: When your room was moved, did your all possessions go with it?
KATHI: Yes.
BILL: You didn’t lose anything in the process.
KATHI: Um… not all my possessions. The possessions that I had, one piece of paper that was on…. The counter top, Okay that was gone. The toothbrush, things like that, they were still up in the shelf. What was moved um, was just like some, just some handouts they give out or whatever, a few of those handouts, that was put in the other room and um, and the bed was made. It was completely made, it was like they were getting ready for a new admit. And that’s when I, that’s what alerted me cause that was the day I was really tired. And I’m going back, and I see this bed is made, and I first I thought ‘I’m in the wrong room.’ They said, “No you’re being moved.” And I’m “Where am I being moved?” “We don’t know, I don’t know yet but you’ve been moved.” Even the person I asked, didn’t even know where I was moved to. So now I’m trying to hunt people down and while I’m hunting them down, I’m saying, “Why am I moved and where did you move me?” Finally somebody tells me, “Well you’re over here now.” It was like two doors down, a single room. And when I walked in there the handouts were there and the bed was still… you know… likes it’s a new bed of course and everything. But what was missing was some of my advisements and things like that, I could not find them and I was upset.
BILL: Did they ever catch up with you? Did you ever find them?
KATHI: Well yeah, they were copies of my complaints and things like that. And um, and I said, “I need these, these are very important to me.” And they said, “Well, you know housekeeping could of threw them out or something.” I’m thinking, “Housekeeping threw them out? That’s all the more reason you need to have somebody come in the room to remove their things, because if housekeeping had been known to throw things away….” And he says, “Well, housekeeping does throw things away. A lot of times people leave their advisements laying around.” I said, “That’s why you need to have people come into the room, let them move their things so they can be responsible for them.” So these things were lost then all of a sudden later in the day somebody said, “Well, you know what, I think we may know where your things are.” And I said, “Well… are you… where could they possibly be?” “Well, we’re going to look in your locker and see if they’re with your other things.” So he went to the locker and he came back and said, “We got good news, your stuff is in the locker.” So then I’m thinking, I don’t, see… I recall having that stuff on me and I don’t know if they found it in the trash and later put in the locker. I don’t know if they’re trying to cover their tracks or whatever. But just based on everything that goes on, it’s just so crazy.
BILL: Did you ever have difficulty obtaining um, toilet articles?
KATHI: Yes.
BILL: Do you remember who the particular staff person was that you had that difficulty?
KATHI: Yeah, that was the charge nurse.
BILL: That was the one who we just talked about?
KATHI: Yeah she was the one when… I said, “Who can help me?” She says, “We have two MHW but they’re busy right now, so your needs and wants are going to have to wait.” So then when I told her what I needed she goes, “Okay I’ll get that for you.” So then made me, that sounded to me like well there’s certain things she can do, and other things she won’t do. So then after she gave it to me I said, “So now next time I need one of these, who do I ask?” She goes, “I told you we have to mental health workers, don’t you understand English?”
CRISTINA: Okay thank you ?????.
BILL: I’m watching you get closer to the bottom of the page. Okay, did that situation ever change for you? Did you ever able to get the articles that you needed on a consistent basis?
KATHI: Later that day I asked one person and she gave me one, I said, “Can you give me two?” She says, “Sure.” She gave me two.
BILL: And who was that person?
KATHI: I don’t know. Earlier the charge nurse would only give me one, it looked to me, like I said, ‘one? You want two? I’m boss, you’re getting one.’ Later on somebody else gives me two. There’s a’ lot of inconsistencies going on.
BILL: The person that gave you two, was she dressed in scrubs?
KATHI: I don’t recall.
BILL: The mental health workers, were they dressed in scrubs? Do you recall that?
KATHI: Just some were and some weren’t.
BILL: Okay.
KATHI: The main, like I said the main two mental health workers was the tall guy and…
BILL: And he wore scrubs.
KATHI: And I don’t recall, tall guy, acne, cant miss him and the other guy was the Latino guy, black hair, tied in the back like this and going way down his back and there was only two of them.
BILL: Okay. And you were never told what the shots were that you were given when you were in seclusion.
KATHI: No, they didn’t say anything.
BILL: Even after you came out of seclusion, they never told you why you were, what they were, what those shots were?
KATHI: Well by then it was six, seven hours later, I was, it was probably a new shift.
BILL: And how do you think these problems should be resolved? I know that you’ve already answered that many times over both in here and I think you’ve already done it this morning but let me ask just the question and you tell me what you would like to see come of this. What would you like to see happen or how would you like to see this resolved?
KATHI: Well that’s a tough question, as you know. I do have some ideas. I’m, I’m not the kind of person where I look at somebody and want to see them punitively hurt back. I think a lot of times people act the way they do because of administrative pressure, lack of budget concerns, like we’re through this crisis, California has a problem right now. I think if there was more of, if you guys were staffed better you could do in-service trainings, give these guys some training that they need. I think a lot of times like these individuals I was dealing with, I don’t think they’re properly trained and I think they’re doing business as usual. I would like to see them get the training they need to get. I would like to see somebody held accountable within their um, quality control manual. I’d like to see that revised. And then I ‘d like to see their [be] some sort of a score tracking system, so when they do handle… and my understanding a mental health worker when they get hired off the street they just get a walk through, this is policy, this is a walk through and they have hardly any training what so ever, from what I understand and what I’ve seen. And so the person with the most training, the R.N.’s, they’re doing all the charting have the least amount of contact with the clients. The ones with most of contact have no training. So they have zip on countertransference management. They get in these power struggles and they don’t, instead of diffusing the situation, they escalate it. And then the nurses in the back, all she does is just chart when all the battles are going on. And what I’d like to see done is if they’re going to hire these MSW’s, well you have to have a license to drive why not…
BILL: They’re not MSW’s.
KATHI: I mean MHW’s. You’ve got to have a license to drive, why don’t we give these guys a 39 questions or whatever. Say, ‘”What’s the criteria for putting somebody in seclusion?’ Multiple, make it multiple checking. Is there a one-hour-rule? Well, if they check that, you lost, you failed, there is no one-hour-rule.
BILL: Okay, so basically what you’re saying is, that you think that the resolution to this would be um, a better education system on the hospitals part?
KATHI: In frequent, very frequent, because if they need training due to staff turnover, it needs to be frequent. And I think education is not enough. There needs to be accountability education. There needs to be a scoring system.
BILL: Okay.
KATHI: That way, when they mess up, they’ll come back and they’ll look at their tests and they’ll say, “Well you knew better, look at the way you answered this. Obviously, you can’t claim ignorance.”
BILL: Okay. Did they know what your condition was when you went in?
KATHI: I don’t know.
BILL: Did you ever feel that you were discriminated against?
KATHI: Yes, when they moved my room. I mean that was, they left me to my conclusion, my own devices, because I asked them why they moved me and they said because of new admits.
BILL: Did they ever, was anything ever said to you of a discriminatory nature?
KATHI: Well, other than I’m childish, I’m acting like a child, this is crap, other than that?
BILL: Okay. Well I’m done unless you have additional things that you want to go over.
KATHI: No. I can’t think of anything. I think we’ve had fair time. Like I said, I’d like a copy of the transcript.
BILL: We’ll get it to you then. That’s not a problem. Just give us a little time to get it typed. And we will obviously leave it…. Do we have your fax number? Can we fax that to you?
KATHI: Yeah you can fax it.
BILL: Is it on here?
KATHI: Its one digit less than my phone number.
ARIMI: And actually we’d like you to maybe, its usually a good idea to have you go through it before, you know, it’s a final document that way if there is anything that you know …..
KATHI: Just for corrections.
ARIMI: Yeah, you know sometimes, you know.
BILL: Your fax number is yyy-yyyy, no that’s ours. Bill that’s good you don’t even know your own fax number.
KATHI: Mine is xxx.
BILL: Yeah xxxx.
KATHI: Yes and my phone number is xxxx.
BILL: Okay yeah you’re right it is….
KATHI: Well, it seems from talking to you, you have this… like you’re understanding what I’m saying… like you’ve been through a thousand times with these people.
BILL: Well we haven’t been through it with Victor Valley necessarily…
KATHI: Uh huh.
BILL: …but what makes you think anything is different whether you go from Victor Valley to ARMC to Redlands Community to Community College, to Community Hospital of San Bernardino to Canyon Ridge? It doesn’t make any difference. I …. You’re absolutely right, there’s not a doubt in my mind about what you say, I’ve heard it before. I’ve seen it before, so its, I think we have a good complaint here.